NOPD Kills Man–Force Justified?

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  Kirk

  November 14, 1964, 3:04 pm

  According to the link, they shot him after he "lunged" toward one of them with a knife, not just because he held the knife. It sounds like a small difference, but it's an important one. As far as whether it merits death, that depends on if you're asking as a legal question or a philospohical one. Legally, yes it warrants death. Philosophically, well, that's up to you. I also noticed that they said pepper spray had no effect on him. Not sure why that would be. The usual explanation, drug use, will probably come up at some point. They started with verbal warnings that were ignored, it escalated to a moderate use of force (pepper spray) which was ineffective, and when he appeared to be attacking a cop, he got blasted. You're right that seeing a video would probably help, but I'll be surprised if much comes of this. As far as police shootings go, it probably wouldn't have caught anyone's attention if it wasn't in New Orleans.
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  janai

  November 14, 1965, 3:04 pm

  I share the distaste for police and the imbalance we typically see from the media that decides to show whose getting shot by them. I have to agree we're hearing this mainly because its in New Orleans. Personally, it seems to me that there has been an attempt to make New Orleans seem a place of lawlessness by the suppose legal system as well as the people who live there. I guess to make feel people feel better about leaving them without decent shelter and water for a week. To answer the questions 1.yes, if they cared enough to try 2.no, and the fact that there's that big a gap between legally and philospohical, is a problem in itself Definitely in agreement that this isn't unique, but I still find it worthy of discussion especially because it's New Orleans.
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  Clarence

  November 14, 1966, 3:04 pm

  This is an interesting case. Of course the video would be helpful on this one. The most important issue with this one is that dude lunged within ONE FOOT of an officer with the knife. If that is true, then that alone can get you justifiably shot by any damn body. Now in the case of there being multiple police officers, one needs only to reference any episode of COPS to see that they should be trained in tactics to disarm buddy. It seems like an attempt should have been made, but I'm not the one risking getting cut up. All I could think throughout this whole thing is what happened to shooting dude in the leg? I was glad to see that come up in the article. I wonder if that is in their police handbook. If not it should be. When the pepper spray failed and the wild waving of the knife continued kneecaps could have been understandibly blown out. But that's just me.
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  aliajsmith

  November 14, 1967, 3:04 pm

  My first reaction was the usual disgust with all things uniformed and armed (yeah, I know, there are some good ones, but I don't see Jerry Orbach or Mariska Hargitay on the news much...). It doesn't help that a friend of mine who's doing clean-up work in NO came home traumatized a couple of weeks ago because the police broke up the funeral of his friend (the friend had died in a car accident that no one'd had time to respond to). But then, I set all that aside and thought about what I would do if I were one of the uniformed and armed. I'd like to say that I would have disarmed ol' boy without hurting him, but let's be real: if he was, in fact, on something stronger than aspirin or tylenol, he could've hurt a good number of the cops before they took him down. Ever seen a crackhead run from the police? Desperation and drugs don't mix. I'd also like to say that wielding a knife doesn't merit death. After all, I have students who like to hide boxcutters by the school so that they'll have protection on the way home. But if this dude really did "lunge" at the police he left himself few options. I'm sure they could have shot to injure and not to kill... ...but if some guy was lunging at me, or one of my students, or a member of my family, with a knife, would I be worried about injuring and not killing him, or would I just want to end the lunge as quickly as possible? So, to answer the questions: 1. Sure, but if he's high the odds of nobody getting hurt with that knife are pretty slim. 2. It shouldn't. It really shouldn't. But if it comes down to me or him, he's gotta go.
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  Ben

  November 14, 1968, 3:04 pm

  Don't cops carry nightsticks anymore? Seems to me that should be the next option if pepper spray doesn't work. But even if a gun has to be used, there's not much of an excuse for pumping ten shots into a motherfucker.
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  Ben

  November 14, 1969, 3:04 pm

  Don't cops carry nightsticks anymore? Seems to me that should be the next option if pepper spray doesn't work. But even if a gun has to be used, there's not much of an excuse for pumping ten shots into a motherfucker.
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  Kirk

  November 14, 1970, 3:04 pm

  A nightstick? Against a knife? You're either a braver man than me or a stupider one. I'm sure we'll disagree as to which one it is. As far as 10 bullets, that's not a big deal. You have multiple cops thinking the same thing at the same time. So, they all fire at the same time. If it were 10 bullets from one gun, then I'd agree with you and say it was excessive. If, however, it's 10 bullets from 3 or 4 guns, that's a different story altogether. I'm actually taking the stick. All about range of motion and attack.
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  Kirk

  November 14, 1971, 3:04 pm

  A nightstick? Against a knife? You're either a braver man than me or a stupider one. I'm sure we'll disagree as to which one it is. As far as 10 bullets, that's not a big deal. You have multiple cops thinking the same thing at the same time. So, they all fire at the same time. If it were 10 bullets from one gun, then I'd agree with you and say it was excessive. If, however, it's 10 bullets from 3 or 4 guns, that's a different story altogether. I'm actually taking the stick. All about range of motion and attack.
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  Kirk

  November 14, 1972, 3:04 pm

  Ok, didn't completely finish the edit. "Stupider" should have said "dumber". Damn near proved the wrong side of my argument there...
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  Kirk

  November 14, 1973, 3:04 pm

  Ok, didn't completely finish the edit. "Stupider" should have said "dumber". Damn near proved the wrong side of my argument there...
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  Ben

  November 14, 1974, 3:04 pm

  Yes, a nightstick against a knife. If you and I were to go 'round and 'round, and I had a choice between a knife and a nightstick, give me the damn stick. Try to stab at me and you'll be pullin' back a shattered hand. And I'm not even trained. And frankly, I don't see how anyone can say that ten bullets being fired at someone isn't excessive. One shot to the knee will always do the trick. Ideally, he should've never been shot. But at most, this man should've been shot no more than 3 or 4 times, depending on the number of pigs present. And he should still be alive. Due process never comes from the barrel of a gun.
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  Auroon

  November 14, 1975, 3:04 pm

  This is really a toss-up. According to the article, it wasn't just a knife, it was a "hunting knife" and homey was obviously on something or just wildin' out like Nick Cannon. I've been to the N.O. and there's really not too much room for a black person to be getting tough with a squad of ten cops. Here's the bottom line: cops live for situations like the one above, especially when they realize it's a knife and not a gun because then they are comfortable with the fact that it's not equal force even though technically, in legal terms, it is. Ask yourself a question: if you had a crew of 10 armed guys with you, and homey had a knife, would you really feel threatened? I wouldn't. Even if I was getting the knife wielded at me, I know that my squad would squad-up and lay him down. In my book, it's definitely excessive force considering he got swiss-cheesed up. Two or three shots away from the head or heart would have definitely done the trick. Also, note that the article says the officers are trained to "shoot-to-kill," how is that a good excuse? They aren't trained to shoot any other way? Hard to believe. The sad part is that it doesn't matter what we think, because all of the cops are going to hold each other down, make this dude look like Rodney King in the day-time, black and crazy. This is injustice at it's finest y'all. We're living in a different world.
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  Kirk

  November 14, 1976, 3:04 pm

  Considering how many cops were there, he really should have caught a lot more than 10. I don't care how many people you've got on your side, or who they are, or how you know them, waiting for someone else to defend you when you're being attacked really ain't all that bright, and is probably a good way to get yourself killed. There are legitimate abuses of authority, but I don't think this is one of them. I would suggest that people might be better served spending their time looking for one of those, rather than using this incident as an excuse to indulge a childish dislike of all things law enforcement.
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  Kirk

  November 14, 1977, 3:04 pm

  Considering how many cops were there, he really should have caught a lot more than 10. I don't care how many people you've got on your side, or who they are, or how you know them, waiting for someone else to defend you when you're being attacked really ain't all that bright, and is probably a good way to get yourself killed. There are legitimate abuses of authority, but I don't think this is one of them. I would suggest that people might be better served spending their time looking for one of those, rather than using this incident as an excuse to indulge a childish dislike of all things law enforcement.
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  Elizabeth

  November 14, 1978, 3:04 pm

  Yes, 18 cops can take a knife from a man without killing him. Do 18 cops want to take a knife from a black man without killing him? No, weilding a knife does not merit death...unless you're black. Then you're asking for it. Not that you need a sign and bullseye on your chest saying "just shoot me here" Maybe I'm just bitter...Why do I feel like some cops choose their profession just to be presumably above the law? Serious deep rooted problems with law enforcement and the law for that matter. Ok...let's examine this picture. Two white cops damn near point blank. Anybody notice where they're aiming? Look at black dude in the rear. Is it me or is that picture a little blurry. Whatever he has in his hand does not look very big. He looks like a well groomed, well dressed crackhead. Never seen one of those before. Not saying that it couldn't possibly be...just I never seen it. Or maybe I didn't know I was seeing it. "Mentally imbalanced" doesn't quite equal drugs to me. Not that I'd buy any description given by cops in the spotlight after a questionable incident goes down. They'd report anything to cover their asses. Plus the media is biased anyway.
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  Left Coast Vic

  November 14, 1979, 3:04 pm

  Real (law) talk: Tennessee v. Garner (1985) Under the Fourth Amendment, deadly force may be used to effectuate an arrest only: 1) in response to deadly force; or 2) if there is probable cause to believe the suspect poses a threat of serious physical harm and the force is necessary to prevent escape. Court prefers that warning be issued first. "Deadly force" is construed broadly and permissively, especially considering that cops usually have a split second to decide to cap or not to cap. Also, the courts do not use the reasonable person standard. The courts use the reasonable OFFICER standard. This allows the court to consider whether anything in the officer's knowledge or experience influenced the decision to use deadly force. Does this happen to crazy white guys? Yes it does. Google "Gideon Busch" for more info (Orthodox Jewish cat who got murked by NYPD).
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  eauhellzgnaw

  November 14, 1980, 3:04 pm

  White dudes get brutalized and killed by cops too, but these cases (and cases in which black cops brutalize/kill black suspects) are not really deemed that newsworthy. The white cop/black "victim" angle draws more attention and the sensationalistic news media knows as much. And for the reasons someone mentioned above, the fact that it was in N.O. was important as well.============ As for the cops, they probably could have disarmed him without killing him, but come on. Dude was brandishing a knife to cops--not very wise. I'd feel sorry for him if he had mental problems and had failed to take his medication; otherwise, he pretty much got what he deseved. This isn't Amadou Diallo or Abner Louima we're dealing with. I understand that the mere fact of criminal activity doesn't excuse police violence, but this guy was directly threatening officers. Why jump to HIS defense so quickly? Dubois broke it down brilliantly in TSoBF: a racist criminal justice system unfortunately makes many whites view all blacks as guilty, and many blacks view all blacks as innocent/victims.
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  kobie

  November 14, 1981, 3:04 pm

  So white people also get "brutalized" by police? In a country with a majority white population, the numbers might even out - MAYBE. But isn't that part of the problem? It's like saying that there are more white people in prison than black people, which is true. But the numbers are hardly proportionate.(Anyway, I do not agree with this assertion, that white people suffer abuse at the hands of police equal to Blacks. Having been a social worker closely involved in situations that called for police assistance, I have witnessed too many occassions where the same pig who would overreact to the most banal of situtations involving Black disputants (thus making a bad situation worse) would become a real "cool jacket" when dealing with white folks.) And why do so many of the posters here attempt to justify the acts of the pigs - who have historically, gleefully played the role of watchdog, terrorist, and "occupying army" in Black/poor communities - by proclaiming that the brother was "crazy," "on drugs," or just plain "stupid?" Or, even worse, that because he was "stupid" enough to bring a knife to a gun fight that he "deserved" to die??? (what kind of john wayne rule of law bullshit is that???) Aren't you all wallowing verily in the same sea of racial prejudice and stereotype that you seek, on some level, to condemn? I mean, damn, I thought this website was a place for progressive folk - dare i say radical folk to voice an opinion. But most of you muthafuckers sound like dues payin members of the fraternal order of pigs - i mean police!
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  eauhellzgnaw

  November 14, 1982, 3:04 pm

  I didn't say that whites suffer from police brutality as much as blacks do (proportionally speaking). I said that it happens to whites too, but a number of people are only interested when it's the white cop/black victim combo (others are only interested when the victim is white, but that's another story). People who can only see black folks in the role of victims of white violence would rather blindly back a violent black minority than the law-abiding black majority, who comprise the victims of this crime.======= As individuals, police officers are just like any other group: Some are good people, some are not. They just have more power than most. Yes, some bring their prejudices to work and abuse their power, but not all do. If one spends time in poor black communties, one usually sees at least some officers from the communities who are trying to help the mostly law-abiding residents, businesses, schools, etc. What about the individual black officers and professional organizations designed to improve community relations and combat racist policing? Are these officers "terrorists" too?======== It’s crucial to remember the history of corruption and state sponsored violence against nonwhites and the poor, but today's police officers still have an important function, and have to play a part in helping to overcome corruption and racism that still exists. The only way to help is to combat both the internal racism of the police force, AND the notion that all law enforcement agents are “pigs” who want to oppress us, and that the black ones are “sell outs.”========= Painting all blacks hurt or killed by cops as innocent victims, even when they aren’t, will not help. It’s not even about whether a suspect is an angel or not; it’s whether said suspect is threatening people. There’s a categorical difference between this guy and a Dialo or Louima, who did absolutely nothing to warrant their treatment, and who posed no threat to anyone. There’s even a difference between this guy and a Rodney King. King, though likely drugged up AND crazy, was NOT a threat to the cops once he stopped his car and got out. And even if he was a threat, it should have been over once he was subdued.=========Oh, and spouting a simplistic, watered-down version post-colonial theory culled from a pamphlet a "revolutionary community activist" was disseminating at a dead prez show will not help either.
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  kobie

  November 14, 1983, 3:04 pm

  Firstly, who or what is a "dead prez?" Do you refer to George W. Bush? If so, clue me in. If not, then do not attempt to discredit what I'm saying by comparing me or my words to some irrelevant rap group. And what did I say that was in any way "simplistic?" Could it be that you cannot comprehend what I'm saying? Or was that an attempt to put me down? If so, you'll have to try harder (both to understand and to put me down!). Secondly, the reason why people are interested when it's the "white cop/black victim combo" - your own ignorant simplification makes all this sound like we're ordering a f*ckin happy meal - is because there is a veritable history of just this kind of illegitimate violence committed by pigs against Black people. Indeed, the power that law enforcement authorities wield against Blacks, other so-called minorities, and the poor is not a legitimate power or a legitimate type of violence, as many would have you believe. Just because someone is a pig with a badge and a gun does not give them the "right" to transcend their discretionary power and go upside the heads of Black people whenever they feel the urge. It matters not if the Black person is "law-abiding," or if they fall neatly into your bigoted conception of being somehow "crazy," "on drugs," a "threat" of some kind, or a "thug." I disagree with the notion that any man with a knife is a "threat" to a group of well armed, well trained men with guns. Any extent to which such a man is considered a threat has little to do with the actual situation or present conditions, and much more to do with how that man is pre-judged and conceived in the minds of the pigs who feel "threatened" by him. If the conception is strong enough and negative enough, then that man will cease to be a man at all in the eyes of his attackers. At this point anything is possible, including the desperate but all-too-familiar spectacle of a multitude of fanatic white pigs screaming at one lone kife wielding Black man, and also including murder. Here, let me help you to understand: this man was killed not because of what he was doing at that particular moment, but rather because of who he is, or was. There now, do you understand, or was that too simplistic? Again, this is not some isolated or coincidental "accident" where an otherwise benevolent police force plugged ten rounds into your "victim." Rather, this incident is suggestive of a broader history of racist, terrorist (yes, I said it, again), watchdog, reactionary violent behavior of pigs who monitor and control Black/poor communities. I don't know where you grew up, and so I don't know if you can understand how bad pig behavior can be. Thirdly, I certainly do not see Black people only in the role of victim. How could I say that and still be the "watered down, post colonial, revolutionary community activist" you have pegged me to be? (wow, you wildly racist reactionaries and your half-assed assumptions!) Indeed, these two positions are contradictory, i.e., if I am satisfied with victimhood status then I could never be a so-called revolutionary, you idiot. Seriouisly, I do not subscribe to the notion of reducing the whole of the Black experience to victimhood. But to deny that Black people have in some way and in some sense been victims of global white hegemony is, I think, to miss a crucial component of said Black experience. Lastly, to rely on the good will of "honest" pigs - pigs who are mostly powerless in their respective departments - to correct the behavioral patterns of "bad cops" - pigs who have held positions of power in police dpts all across the country for many generations - when the problem is actually systemic in nature, that's like Black folks still waiting for their forty acres and two mules. How long are you going to wait? How many more Black/Brown/poor people have to be murdered for no goddamn reason? Grow up! It is you who needs to snap out of your simple and ignorant dream of rugged individualists working together to make America great. There is no historical truth or accuracy in your dream. And, after all, the best way to make a dream come true is to WAKE UP!
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  eauhellzgnaw

  November 14, 1984, 3:04 pm

  I understand completely what you're saying--I've heard it and argued against it many times; it's just simplistic rubbish.============In both posts I stated clearly that the mere fact of criminal activity does not warrant police violence, even if a person is on drugs or is plum loco (though somehow you seem to think that it's bigoted to declare the fact that some folks who the police encounter are in fact either or both). As I said, it's about threat, pure and simple. If someone approached you or your family in public or in your residence wielding a knife, you'd be not only irresponsible but stupid if you didn't consider him a threat. In fact, even if you and a group of people you knew pulled weapons in self-defense, the knife-wielder would STILL pose a threat. I would hope that you'd agree that police officers who draw guns on people are threatening. That's the whole point of pulling the guns. It's not about status or race, it's about the cold fact of wielding a weapon and brandishing it toward others.============I have lived in many places in many parts of the country. I've seen terribly racist police behavior, but I've also seen very good policing. I know officers who were drawn to law enforcement precisely because they care about the black people in their commuities and want to fight both the violence in their neighborhoods and the racism of the blue wall. Yes, there is a systemic problem, but it's wrong to discount personal interactions with citizens as a positive vehicle for change. Even if the police assign officers to police an area based on the race and class of the inhabitants (which is a systemic form of racism), the police who patrol have control over how they will treat these people.========And I have no idea where you got this rugged individualist stuff, but I must admit that it was quite entertaining.==============I don't think you're espousing a "revolutionary" argument (that's why I put the word in quotation marks). It's wheel-spinning, counter-productive nonsense. It's the approach of irrelevent so-called "community activists," with nowhere to channel their indignation, and nothing intelligent to say (see: Buggin-Out).
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  ronnie brown

  November 14, 1985, 3:04 pm

  Police officers, because they represent the State and legally wield the power of lethal force, do have a greater responsibility to exercise that authority with RESTRAINT. Lest we forget, most officers go their ENTIRE CAREER without discharging their weapon..."Threat" is a subjective term. Like beauty, it depends on who's doin' the looking. 18 armed officers can't DISABLE 1 man with a knife without killing him?...well, not if you don't want to!
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  Rex

  November 14, 1986, 3:04 pm

  Here in Hawaii, a cop accosted a perp on an overpass. Instead of pulling his gun, he tried to wrestle the guy to the ground. The perp picks him up, tosses the cop over the rail, and onto the Freeway below to his death. A week or so later, a cop accosts a perp in a Baskin Robbins. He decides not to pull his gun. He gets wasted. A month or so later, a cop in Waikiki accosts a perp in a car trying to make a getaway. The cop orders him to stop. Of course he doesn't. In his attempt to get away, he backs up the car in the direction of the cop... BOOM. Bullet in the brain. You think the actions of the first two cops and the outcome influenced this cop to end it immediately? Here's the deal. Tell the person to put the knife down from a distance. If not, shoot his leg. Tell him to put it down again. If not, shoot his other leg. I'll bet the knife gets laid down then... And yes, white dudes get wasted too. But what kind of news is that? We're ALL suckers for the media's spin.
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  kobie

  November 14, 1987, 3:04 pm

  It is clear, eauhellzgnaw, that you have not in fact understood a single word I have said, despite your claims to the contrary. Perhaps you should read my posts again (and again) and then attempt to formulate a cohesive counterpoint that addresses the issues I've raised with your notion of what constitutes a "threat," which is a notion that you do not yet seem to comprehend. As of now, you do not even appear to be connected to reality in any meaningful way, as all of your juvenile attempts to discredit me and put me down involve pop cultural references to fictitious movie characters and rap groups. Frankly, the problems I'm attempting to point out to you, the questions I'm trying to raise, the things I'm trying to get you to see cannot be answered or seen at a rap concert or in your local theater. Rather it's happening out on the streets in the communities you continually denigrate (albeit in your confused effort to denigrate me). You seem to be living in a fantasy world, hellzgnaw, and so I am clearly wasting my time by reaching out to you from the real world. As I suspected, you are a complete idiot, and so I shall trouble you no further.
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  ronnie brown

  November 14, 1988, 3:04 pm

  "Tell the person to put the knife down from a distance...if not, shoot his leg...tell him to put it down again...if not, shoot his other leg." Rex speaketh with common sense.